WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:13.000 Hello everyone, good as we would say in Dutch before noon, no, good morning. 00:13.000 --> 00:18.800 I am here to present the presentation with a long title, fully open source education tool 00:18.800 --> 00:21.200 to stimulate logical reasoning. 00:21.200 --> 00:26.480 So first, before we delve into that short, who am I, my name is Simo van Vellder, I'm a 00:26.480 --> 00:31.680 postdoctoral researcher at the University of Kyloven, but campus denial, they really 00:31.680 --> 00:34.040 want me to say that. 00:34.040 --> 00:37.440 Where I research notes, base AI, right? 00:37.440 --> 00:43.280 But besides the fact that I am this researcher, I also really have a pension for education 00:43.280 --> 00:45.600 and educating programming. 00:45.600 --> 00:50.720 So for instance, as a student job for five years, I've been always been a programming 00:50.720 --> 00:57.120 teacher in my weekends and currently I'm also the dojo lead of the Coder dojo master. 00:57.120 --> 01:01.000 So just to show that I really like to do these things. 01:01.000 --> 01:07.520 And then at one point, I wanted to combine these two and I wanted to fit this into my research, 01:07.520 --> 01:14.800 which I kind of did, maybe perhaps not fully, but it's in my PhD thesis, so it worked 01:14.800 --> 01:16.120 out in the end. 01:16.120 --> 01:22.720 So I'm here to present fully, which stands for first order, logic learning environment. 01:22.720 --> 01:27.040 I thought of this name, I thought, yes, what a great name, fully also means something 01:27.040 --> 01:34.440 else in English, so it's a great acronym until I found out that fully means idiocy. 01:34.440 --> 01:38.320 I misjudged that one, but the name stuck, so I kept it. 01:38.320 --> 01:43.600 The goal of fully is to teach first order logic to children aged 8 to 13 year olds, or 01:43.600 --> 01:49.080 just children in general, if also done it with 18 year olds, of course, much older. 01:49.080 --> 01:55.480 So for full those who may not be familiar with it, first order logic are these sentences, 01:55.480 --> 02:02.760 and you might recognize these sentences from math classes, and these scary upside down 02:02.760 --> 02:08.480 A's, the flips over E's, these sentences, for instance, say that for every X, it holds 02:08.480 --> 02:12.920 that if they are a human, then they're also an animal, and then it does the same thing, 02:12.960 --> 02:17.760 that every animal is mortal, and this can allow us to do deduction, such as if I now tell 02:17.760 --> 02:22.960 you that I am a human, I can deduce that I am an animal, and therefore that I am also mortal, 02:22.960 --> 02:23.960 right? 02:23.960 --> 02:26.080 So that's the idea of full. 02:26.080 --> 02:27.640 So why do we want to teach full? 02:27.640 --> 02:32.840 Well, it's an important foundation of many fields such as math, philosophy, psychology, 02:32.840 --> 02:39.720 even, there's a huge aspect of full, but also computer science in general, it's an important 02:39.720 --> 02:41.480 cornerstone, right? 02:41.480 --> 02:46.880 But it also helps with computational thinking, which is a very important aspect, I teach 02:46.880 --> 02:50.120 a horizontal computational thinking, so that's very nice. 02:50.120 --> 02:57.640 It's also a pillar of AI, you might not think of it as such, but really first order logic 02:57.640 --> 03:03.920 and logic-based AI is still alive and kicking at those of you who know expert systems, 03:03.920 --> 03:08.960 take that into 20, 25, and we still exist. 03:08.960 --> 03:11.920 But it also sharpens the reasoning skills in general. 03:11.920 --> 03:18.520 To show you an example of something that we want to teach children is the way since selection 03:18.520 --> 03:19.520 task. 03:19.520 --> 03:24.320 So you are shown four cards and on each card there's a number on one side and a color on the 03:24.320 --> 03:25.320 other side, right? 03:25.320 --> 03:29.120 So you get shown these four cards, maybe with the color it's not so easy, but so there's 03:29.120 --> 03:31.720 a three and eight blue card and a red card, right? 03:31.720 --> 03:35.880 So remember on the other side there's always a number on a color. 03:35.880 --> 03:44.480 I now tell you that every card with an even number must also have a blue backside, right? 03:44.480 --> 03:50.400 Now it's up to you to see, to verify if that is actually true, but you want to do that 03:50.400 --> 03:52.200 with a few cards as possible. 03:52.200 --> 03:59.160 So which cards would you need to flip to verify that every card with an even number 03:59.160 --> 04:01.360 has a blue backside? 04:01.360 --> 04:05.560 Okay, unless you know it already then of course don't say it. 04:05.560 --> 04:09.440 But if you want to do a guess, anyone who wants to do a guess with things that I guess might 04:09.440 --> 04:15.640 be incorrect, you would do three, okay, then I don't know what I expected but it's a 04:15.640 --> 04:20.320 great guess yes, and the other guesses you can also do multiple cards of course, yeah. 04:20.320 --> 04:24.960 You would do the second cards, right? 04:24.960 --> 04:28.520 You would do the eight and then blue, right? 04:28.600 --> 04:32.240 But who of you would do eight and blue? 04:32.240 --> 04:36.320 Okay, apparently no one, okay, multiple people who do eight and blue. 04:36.320 --> 04:44.800 It turns out eight and blue is the most of the most often occurring choice by children 04:44.800 --> 04:51.120 or by adults in general, because we would think that you need to check eight and blue, 04:51.120 --> 04:55.480 but that's incorrect, in reality you need to check eight and red, why? 04:55.480 --> 05:01.920 I said that every even card has a blue backside, so that means that the eight you need 05:01.920 --> 05:07.000 to check to see that it is blue, and the red one you need to check that it's not even 05:07.000 --> 05:09.480 on the other side, that it's an uneven number. 05:09.480 --> 05:14.200 The blue one I don't care about, if the blue one is even or uneven, really I don't care 05:14.200 --> 05:16.920 because an uneven number can have any color at once. 05:16.920 --> 05:21.840 I only say what should happen in the case of an even number, and this is a very easy 05:21.840 --> 05:28.800 example of where linguistics, where our human conception of an if-then goes wrong, but in 05:28.800 --> 05:35.440 first-order logic everything is precise, everything is non-ambiguous, so there it is clear 05:35.440 --> 05:42.280 that you would need to check the eight and the red, so no solution, wow. 05:42.280 --> 05:47.160 So there's some difficulties in teaching fall, well it doesn't do anything, in scratch, 05:47.160 --> 05:50.840 I guess a lot of you might be familiar with scratch, you have these nice blocks, you have 05:50.840 --> 05:55.080 these cats, the cat can meow, the cat can move around, that's all very cool, but first 05:55.080 --> 05:59.760 of logic doesn't do anything, it's just boring sentences. 05:59.760 --> 06:03.800 It also has a very steep learning curve, because there are these linguistical differences 06:03.800 --> 06:09.760 that you need to be aware of before you can actually start modeling correct fold sentences. 06:09.760 --> 06:16.320 Really it takes a very long time to be able to well versed enough in fold to present correct 06:16.320 --> 06:17.560 sentences. 06:17.560 --> 06:22.120 We also have these scary mathematical symbols, which helped your nightmares, yeah, at 06:22.120 --> 06:28.440 least was my experience when I was a child, I really hated it and then I started research 06:28.440 --> 06:33.920 in it, I don't know how that happened, somewhere along the way I started liking it, 06:33.920 --> 06:34.920 I guess. 06:34.920 --> 06:38.920 So like I said, it's also not fun, there's no animation, there's no standards, graphics, 06:38.920 --> 06:41.960 so you wanted to build better learning environment. 06:42.040 --> 06:47.240 I have a more detailed screenshot, yeah, this doesn't really tell us a lot other than, 06:47.240 --> 06:51.320 you know, this has a lot of syntax, this has scary red lines, this has things that can 06:51.320 --> 06:56.840 be typed incorrectly, these are all things that children, 8 to 13 year olds, they want 06:56.840 --> 06:59.480 like doing these things. 06:59.480 --> 07:06.360 So our design goals for this tool were as follows, oops, were as follows, firstly we wanted 07:06.360 --> 07:11.840 to do something with representation of fold, we wanted to have no finicky syntax, so basically 07:11.920 --> 07:16.880 it should be a bit syntax less, it should have a clear structure, we also really wanted 07:16.880 --> 07:20.960 to encourage trial and error and experimentation, we wanted children to be able to work 07:20.960 --> 07:25.320 in groups and if you put them in front of a computer and there's only one mouse and one 07:25.320 --> 07:29.880 keyboard as every computer has, then it's difficult to work together because always one 07:29.880 --> 07:34.320 child will have the upper hand and you can't really say I take the left side of the keyboard 07:34.320 --> 07:38.520 to take the right side of the keyboard as a bit weird way of working, so those are the 07:38.520 --> 07:43.400 things that we really want to encourage, then on the other hand we wanted them to have a 07:43.400 --> 07:49.000 nice task to do, right, which it focus on model theory, which maybe not everyone knows, 07:49.000 --> 07:53.320 but it's an important aspect, it should focus on model theory, it should give clear and 07:53.320 --> 07:58.600 immediate feedback because again we want this interactivity, it should increase gradually 07:58.600 --> 08:05.240 increase in difficulty and it should be of course engaging and fun, but what application 08:05.240 --> 08:09.960 domain do we use, as well I've told you a task, I've told you about our representation, 08:09.960 --> 08:14.360 but we still don't know what's problem domain we will be working it, also let me remove my 08:14.360 --> 08:21.720 cursor perhaps, right, so for the application domain we selected robot designs, so we do 08:21.720 --> 08:28.280 these phone cartoony robots very colorful, right, they are very compelling in a way and for 08:28.280 --> 08:32.840 these robots each component can have a different color, so you can see here they have arms, 08:33.720 --> 08:38.200 each of these things can have a different color and they may also wear heads and that's it, 08:38.200 --> 08:43.880 that's our application domain, these are the things that our children will represent rules or 08:43.880 --> 08:51.000 represent knowledge over in general, then the second aspect was the notation, so of course we went 08:51.000 --> 08:58.040 for a box based notation inspired by scratch and so many other similar approaches where they could 08:58.040 --> 09:06.920 express fairly simple expressions over these robots, so here for instance you see that there's 09:06.920 --> 09:12.760 a block for each holds that in this for each, they can put this pill shaping which in this case 09:12.760 --> 09:17.320 is components, the component of course needs a name, because basically what they're doing 09:17.320 --> 09:21.960 they're quantifying over a variable, so this is the scary upside down a which is now a nice looking 09:22.600 --> 09:27.720 book, so they say for each component which we call see must hold that its color must be red, right, 09:27.720 --> 09:35.560 and in this way the sentences have a more natural reading as well, so you can whenever they are 09:35.560 --> 09:41.080 debugging what they are doing I can simply tell a child can you read to me what you have expressed 09:41.080 --> 09:47.480 using these blocks and in doing that they typically are able to find their error more quickly, 09:47.720 --> 09:53.560 however like I said using the mouse does not stimulate collaboration, mouse and keyboards we don't 09:53.560 --> 09:59.960 want to use, so what we did we took it one step further and we actually laser cut out these blocks 09:59.960 --> 10:07.720 out of plywood and the blocks are then engraved with their intended meaning, this is in Dutch I'm 10:07.720 --> 10:14.600 sorry, but basically these are blocks like is a like where's the helmet and or is an arm x, 10:15.320 --> 10:20.680 we have red, blue, green, right arm, all these components, everything you need to express these rules 10:22.680 --> 10:28.040 are there and it makes it tangible, puzzle-like, you can see it, you can see these blocks in front 10:28.040 --> 10:32.600 of you and you can immediately start puzzling with them and you can put them together and what's 10:32.600 --> 10:38.600 nice is that sometimes you don't necessarily know yet what you want to express or what you 10:38.600 --> 10:43.480 need to express something and say that they need something to say something about the color of the 10:43.480 --> 10:49.720 left arm for instance then they don't necessarily need to know they don't necessarily know yet how to 10:49.720 --> 10:54.760 do that but they might see the block color off which in the left hand side has a circle right hand 10:54.760 --> 10:59.800 side as a square and then they think okay so I need a circle and a square so they have this guided 10:59.800 --> 11:09.720 way of looking how to construct their sentences, right? So then for the task the children are shown 11:09.720 --> 11:16.440 seven robots so there are three good robots and three bad robots and they need to express to the 11:17.160 --> 11:24.520 computer basically what a good robot has that the bad robot doesn't so basically what this 11:24.520 --> 11:31.480 thing which is good robots from bad robots that's the main idea and like we say we call this 11:31.480 --> 11:39.000 explain this to the computer because that's yeah we can't really tell them I will express full sentences 11:39.000 --> 11:43.400 and they don't know what that means so we say explain to a computer what this thing which is good 11:43.400 --> 11:49.800 from bad so for example this could be something like the left leg is blue that's an easy one or 11:49.800 --> 11:55.160 if the robot wears a helmet it must also have a green arm and more tricky or every component 11:55.240 --> 11:59.640 that is an arm or a leg must be colored green that's actually the very final level 12:01.640 --> 12:08.680 so here's an example yes showing us a bit of a closer look on actually with the children see 12:08.680 --> 12:14.600 so like I said it's very small for those in the back I'm very sorry but they're shown three good 12:14.600 --> 12:18.840 robots on the left hand side three bad robots on the right hand side and they must distinguish 12:18.840 --> 12:26.200 good from bad in this case the child wants to say that the robot has a red right arm but he 12:26.200 --> 12:33.560 expressed left arm right but this also shows the interactivity a bit as soon as he creates a sentence 12:33.560 --> 12:38.520 the computer picks it up I'll get I'll get to that later but the computer picks it up shows the effect 12:38.520 --> 12:43.880 of the rule on the center robot and then for each of the individual robots shows whether or not 12:43.880 --> 12:48.680 they are correct according to the sentence so on the left hand side you see the three robots are 12:48.680 --> 12:57.160 correct on the right hand side you can see that two of them are correctly incorrectly incorrect 12:57.160 --> 13:04.040 makes no sense but you get what I mean whereas the center one is still valid according to his rule 13:04.040 --> 13:15.080 so his rules incorrect yes now fully itself this basically is just a box which contains the 13:15.080 --> 13:22.120 following components a Raspberry Pi with a camera an LED backlight a set of blocks and each of these 13:22.120 --> 13:27.080 blocks is then annotated with a Rucum markers and so for those of you who do not know Rucum markers 13:27.080 --> 13:32.840 are simplified QR codes you can think of it and it is also one of the cornerstones of computer 13:32.840 --> 13:38.920 vision and they're very very easy to pick up so if my image had been larger you could have seen 13:38.920 --> 13:43.480 that this block had a very small a Rucum marker on it and it's that that the computer sees 13:43.720 --> 13:51.720 the computer sees all of these blocks from the the bottom side of the box the camera basically 13:51.720 --> 13:58.360 looks up they put all of their blocks on a C through pane and the computer then knows 13:59.640 --> 14:05.400 identifies each block and it knows for each block where it expects another block and in this way 14:06.120 --> 14:12.360 what they are doing is effectively programming or or shaping an abstract syntax three if that means 14:12.360 --> 14:18.760 anything to you but they can express all of these sentences and that also makes it completely 14:18.760 --> 14:23.960 generic anything they can express the computer will be able to pick up so there are no pre-programmed 14:23.960 --> 14:32.040 sentences that can be or shouldn't be correct it's all basically they are truly writing for 14:32.040 --> 14:38.760 sort of logic so all you need to run this is an HDMI monitor that's also part of the fun so 14:38.760 --> 14:42.680 it's this box yeah I don't know I would have brought I would have loved to bring it but 14:42.680 --> 14:52.520 I forgot it's very stupid I know and so it's just the box it's like this big it's not 14:52.520 --> 14:57.880 heavy at all because there's only a Raspberry Pi in there right you just plug in an HDMI monitor 14:57.880 --> 15:06.040 you stick it in a socket and box your uncle you have a fully realized fully set up so the 15:06.120 --> 15:13.320 application that I've shown is built in Python it uses Pi game for the interface uses open CV for 15:13.320 --> 15:17.960 computer vision and then this is the important part this is why it's my research as well and it 15:17.960 --> 15:24.760 uses IDPZ3 as a full evaluator not really relevant here I just wanted to stress that if there are 15:24.760 --> 15:32.920 any people who gave me grant money watching this this is related to my research but what's nice about 15:32.920 --> 15:38.600 using a full fully evaluator like I said so we don't have any pre-conceived notion of what is 15:38.600 --> 15:43.800 a correct sentence what is bad sentence every sentence is always fully checked so if a child comes 15:43.800 --> 15:49.080 up with a completely different way that is correct the system will also count it as being correct 15:49.080 --> 15:54.920 because we don't hard code correctness we just evaluate it on the fly and that's quite nice 15:54.920 --> 16:00.280 it can also be annoying when you make a difficult level in which for instance you want the child 16:00.360 --> 16:05.400 to express that every component must be green which is a bit difficult but the child coincidentally 16:05.400 --> 16:11.400 spots that no bad robot has a green right foot so the data say has a green right foot and then 16:11.400 --> 16:19.640 your entire learning curve is shattered but after a while you pick these up and you find all these 16:19.640 --> 16:27.000 mistakes so like I said I whenever a full statement is detected it is evaluators and then we 16:27.000 --> 16:32.840 show the results I have some nice images here which I realize are very small from the back for which 16:32.840 --> 16:37.800 again I am truly sorry but I can show this later and you can come up if you want so these are 16:37.800 --> 16:44.520 children playing around with the boxes as you can see they are working together as much as possible 16:45.480 --> 16:50.600 putting it on this the see-through pain and then the computer can reason with that 16:50.920 --> 16:57.880 all right so I can come back to that later why am I here at full zambic of course because this 16:57.880 --> 17:03.720 is fully open source really everything that I've mentioned here is online in some way or another 17:05.000 --> 17:10.440 so all the code is open source everything is ready to laser cuts so I just have a big 17:10.440 --> 17:16.120 SVG file that contains how to or contains the blocks themselves it contains the boxes because 17:16.120 --> 17:21.320 of course once you start laser cutting one thing you laser cut everything that's the issue of laser cutting 17:22.120 --> 17:28.680 so the boxes are also laser cut the yeah see-through pain was cut by the comma but still you can 17:28.680 --> 17:35.080 also get these things quite easily it's it's very cheap to build as well because all you need is 17:35.080 --> 17:41.320 Raspberry Pi and now that their prices have gone down a bit again I think it's like $60 to get a full box 17:41.320 --> 17:47.800 done if you have a laser cutter like near you all right when we are still doing however 17:47.800 --> 17:52.360 is building a step-by-step guide on how to build it but really it's not that difficult 17:53.560 --> 17:57.800 and also we are setting up a program at our university to allow schools to load 17:57.800 --> 18:02.920 loan out a box for a day because it's if you just build a box and then have fun for it with 18:03.640 --> 18:08.120 30 minutes that's it you don't really want to do that so if the school wants to load 18:08.120 --> 18:14.840 now these boxes that we have them available anyway they can do so all right I have a thank you 18:14.840 --> 18:21.000 slide but before we get that I think I still have time I have a video which says we're having troubles 18:21.000 --> 18:31.720 on my end but maybe not on this end okay my cursor is not cooperating what is this cursed HTML 18:31.800 --> 18:35.480 element how do I drop out of full screen modes 18:42.520 --> 18:49.880 okay okay I see what is going on here I need to move to my other thing 18:52.200 --> 19:00.600 there we go we're getting there okay so here you can see them oh there's even audio wow 19:00.840 --> 19:06.360 you can see how they are putting things on the table or on the screen rather 19:08.520 --> 19:09.960 it will pick it up soon 19:16.280 --> 19:19.960 yeah sometimes the children they make their sentence on the table and then put it on the screen which is 19:20.760 --> 19:25.640 yeah not very smart but whatever so it's it's loading there we go these are the results 19:25.720 --> 19:30.120 you can really see that their brains are thinking the gray matter is stimulated 19:32.280 --> 19:40.600 I'm not a videographer it's not a best video but just goes to show you how this works and 19:40.600 --> 19:48.040 then after this I cut it off because it programmed crashed I fixed that crash I have another video 19:48.040 --> 19:53.240 of one minute if I have time so what's also nice is that at our university we get to organize 19:54.200 --> 20:00.360 children university events where children actually get to come and typically when I give a 20:00.360 --> 20:05.960 fully workshop at because we frequently do workshops for children we start with 20:06.680 --> 20:11.320 explaining to them that you need to program your computer because they typically don't 20:11.320 --> 20:16.520 realize this yet as many of children nowadays at least in my previous workshop last week 20:16.520 --> 20:20.440 think that a computer is a chatbot that you can talk to and my heart starts bleeding 20:21.000 --> 20:30.440 which I guess is what a heart does in a way but not bleeding in the best way okay how do I 20:30.440 --> 20:35.480 yes another video of more time if I enable my JavaScript my god 20:39.640 --> 20:41.480 I need to enable robot of MP4 20:41.800 --> 20:55.320 I have no idea why this happens it worked yesterday when in doubts which do chromium unfortunately chromium 20:56.680 --> 21:07.080 let's see if that works no I have no idea okay doesn't matter I can always show it 21:08.040 --> 21:12.600 later if you want to see but I wanted to show that when we host these workshops we try to tell 21:12.600 --> 21:17.960 them that you need to program a computer and the way we do is we do it do this oh my god 21:17.960 --> 21:23.240 is with the pancake robots where the children need to explain to a human and who acts as a robot 21:23.240 --> 21:29.960 how to make a pancake with shocko or Nutella I guess I should say and I just had a nice video of 21:29.960 --> 21:35.000 where the robot is instructed to put the knife and he puts the knife in the wrong way and the children 21:35.000 --> 21:42.040 all have and it's just wanted to show it because it's always fun to see all right with that being said 21:42.040 --> 21:47.800 I think my slides are now completely broken okay I'll stick on the thank you no let's not I'll stick 21:47.800 --> 21:54.040 on the image slide and we can go to the questions let's say I don't know anything about 21:54.120 --> 22:01.800 for the as in both works I got the the books yeah I made it yeah I would like to host something 22:02.360 --> 22:09.080 how much time going to prepare myself so I can get started with the keys great question 22:10.680 --> 22:15.320 well on the one hand I could give you a sorry I had to repeat the question your question is 22:16.120 --> 22:22.040 how difficult is it to do it as an adult that's what it boils down to it's not so difficult 22:22.760 --> 22:28.200 many of these levels are really self-explanatory if you know what you need to look for 22:29.800 --> 22:37.160 and because you are older and I guess wiser than a child you will be able to do many of these things 22:37.160 --> 22:43.640 much more easily however there are some levels where a jump is very at the jump in difficulty isn't 22:43.640 --> 22:50.120 so gradual once you start explaining how and if then works it's not easy to to do that really 22:51.000 --> 22:55.400 and there's so there's one level where you really need to help children to realize that they need 22:55.400 --> 23:00.520 and if then and I guess that if you as an adult I don't know it either that will be a very 23:00.520 --> 23:07.240 difficult level but of course I can also give you the solution sheet but so typically when I get an 23:07.240 --> 23:12.600 assistance for these workshops I just show them the levels in five minutes and they know it for the rest 23:12.600 --> 23:19.560 of their lives so it's not so not so difficult 23:22.120 --> 23:26.840 excellent question in which language is it available I don't think you mean programming language 23:26.840 --> 23:33.880 right yes so it is it is completely in Dutch for now however it's not so difficult to change it 23:33.880 --> 23:39.480 so the code itself is completely English everything yeah really is in English there but the 23:39.560 --> 23:43.960 blocks are engraved in Dutch so that's the only thing if you engraved in a different language that's 23:43.960 --> 23:51.880 it that also shows another limitation and all the blocks are limited to the robot domain because 23:51.880 --> 23:57.160 they are engraved with the intended meaning of the robot blocks however it's not so difficult these 23:57.160 --> 24:02.680 are Rucomo markers are really universally implemented and if you just use the same Rucomo marker 24:02.680 --> 24:08.040 but I don't know talk about planes everything will work as well out of the box but that's why 24:08.040 --> 24:15.400 we need this build guide to be completely finished so that that process is easier 24:15.400 --> 24:23.960 the video and the photos I see come and put that on the kids like prepare the things 24:23.960 --> 24:29.720 the table sitting that they stand out yeah put it on the work it works pretty high yeah 24:29.720 --> 24:37.320 oh you can see that you have to stand or yes you just think to somehow yes so the question is 24:37.320 --> 24:42.360 the boxes are pretty high they still need to stand up to do it I sorry tend to make their 24:42.360 --> 24:47.480 send us on the table instead and then move it over that is quite a difficult thing to fix 24:47.480 --> 24:52.520 unfortunately because it's the camera that needs to be able to see the entire screen from the 24:52.520 --> 24:58.840 inside of the box so we could use like a fish eye camera but the tender detection becomes a bit 24:59.400 --> 25:07.880 more difficult but really it's just the children being lazy just stand up you already sit down so 25:07.960 --> 25:17.320 much everyday yeah no but it depends from from child to child however some eight-year-olds 25:17.320 --> 25:21.560 even when standing up aren't tall enough and they need to stand on the table so that is 25:21.560 --> 25:23.960 that is an annoyance and it's something that we're looking into 25:31.160 --> 25:36.360 yeah of course those things are possible all right so my time is up but if you have more questions 25:36.360 --> 25:40.440 I'll be around here most likely so thank you very much